I just...can't. I expected to like him, I thought I would warm to him, but I'm afraid it's only gotten worse, and the relationship with Rose was part of it. So it's best for all concerned if I just stay away from Ten!fic!
I really am thinking of splitting it, taking one branch AU Nine with the possibility of a child after some kind of alteration and finally some happiness and one branch Ten with her not willing to be with him for quite some time but the ability to get pregnant but she doesn't because she wanted it with Nine but isn't sure with Ten, and still so super angsty. Okay, now I'm just rambling.
No, actually, I was going to say that if you were wavering, that splitting seemed to be the best option, especially since POTW gives us such an optimal "branching" moment. (And your second option would actually take into account some of the things that really bother me about S2 - I might try to dip a toe in!)
Probably yeah, it is a good place to split it. Which parts of season 2 bothered you? Curious, because if they bug you that much they might be really good places to dig into the storyline at.
I was thinking about this yesterday, trying to figure out how to answer it without writing a huge long essay, because there are a number of interlocking issues that affect how I feel about what happened in S2. In a schematic sense, there are writing/characterization issues, performance issues, and "chemistry" issues, all having a knock-on effect on each other. I'll try to be as brief and clear as possible!
First, let me say that while I passionately adored S1, I loved the completion of its arc, and felt hopeful going into S2. The Children in Need special gave me pretty much everything I wanted, and the little niggle I had about Tennant's performance, I figured was just nerves. I went into TCI expecting to love it.
I also expected them to deal with the emotional fall-out of regeneration. I understand that they wanted to bond the audience to the new guy, but they had done such a terrific job of creating a realistic emotional landscape in S1 that the sudden "Oh, that's okay then!" really knocked me for a loop. (This was not helped by a characterization and a performance which I found problematic; this is worse in retrospect for me.) I know a lot of people squee over the idea that Ten "imprinted" on Rose to be her perfect boyfriend, but I find that repulsive on several levels, some of which redound onto Nine - he still felt inadequate because of the way he looked? And I thought the whole point of Rose's maturation in S1 was that she realized that when she finally, genuinely fell in love, it wasn't with a "pretty boy", but with someone who was "so much better than that." (Just to clarify, I find CE quite beautiful, if not at all "pretty".)
The other thing was that the chemistry changed. Nine and Rose had this remarkable thing that I've never seen before - they were hot and sweet, and yet innocent. It was as if they'd completely bypassed all the enculturated shame and coyness about sexuality, and it just flowed between them. Ten and Rose seemed more...adolescent and ordinary to me. They looked like a high school/college couple from the CW, and they were wrapped up in each other in a way that felt desperate on her part and smug on his. So it felt as if the relationship had narrowed and become more limited and conventional.
So it's complicated. But if you're going to have Rose hesitate rather than just going "Whee!!! Now he's cute!" (I have literally seen a number of people say that Rose couldn't possibly have loved Nine because he was "old and ugly"), that would be a big step in the right direction that the show never took, IMO.
I noticed a little bit of that creeping into Hunger Moon, too. ;-)
The whole "he's obviously more attractive as Ten" thing has made me a bit bitter. Not to mention how it tends to make Rose look, which some fans really don't seem to notice!
Well, yeah, it's going to be in Hunger Moon. It was pretty prevalent in Wolf Moon, too. Her first Doctor, the face she fell in love with...definitely. I do think David Tennant is attractive, but it isn't on the intensely primal level that Christopher Eccleston is. The more you watch CE the more attractive he becomes. DT is attractive up front, but doesn't really ever get more so. CE just keeps getting more and more and more as you go. And so far hasn't stopped. There may not be a stopping place.
Well, yeah, it's going to be in Hunger Moon. It was pretty prevalent in Wolf Moon, too. Her first Doctor, the face she fell in love with...definitely.
Certainly - I was just happy to see her say it out loud! As I say, it's so prevalent in fandom to assume "Well, obviously Ten is more attractive," it's nice to have the counterargument. honorh wrote a fic about it once, because we'd been talking about it. It was very cute.
DT is attractive up front, but doesn't really ever get more so. CE just keeps getting more and more and more as you go.
That's a good distinction, I like that. I think Tennant is cute as a bug (I have more trouble with Ten, because of various writing and performing aspects that push all my buttons in the wrong way), but I'm always surprised when the argument is made that he's more "classically handsome". I don't think that's actually true - he seems to be a particular type that's very much in fashion right now; he really is very much like Jarvis Cocker, who is so attractive because of his personality - something that is very, very appealing to me. But he's slightly cross-eyed, his nose veers off to the side, and he's got a bit of an underbite. Yes, the whole is cute - particularly when he's being relaxed and himself, to my mind - but it's not "classically handsome". It's "fashionably geeky".
But (and this bears on your comment that you can easily imagine him in make-up), CE really has fashion-model looks. Taken in isolation, most of his features are very much the desired shape/size for that feature; the weirdness seems to come in the way everything is so much - the eyes are so big, the cheekbones are so high, the temples are so hollow, the line of the jaw is so perfect; then there are the big ears and big nose, which I happen to like, but he's very extreme, and it's almost as if there's not enough room in his face for all he's got going on. It's interesting that people who see him in person are always commenting on how incredibly beautiful he is in real life, but that the camera doesn't capture it. (I got a kick out of Jonathan Ross goggling over how good-looking he was, then saying, "On film, you look so weird.") I think CE's RL earnestness and shyness are also very appealing, and he does have a sense of humour, it's just excessively dry.
And so far hasn't stopped. There may not be a stopping place.
It's his relationship with the camera that's quite extraordinary. He's so emotionally naked, it's like he becomes transparent. There are moments in Second Coming that just take my breath away because he suddenly becomes a terrified child, or an awkward teenager. In Doctor Who (and Heroes), it's often the way he's got several layers going on at the same time, and yet lets you see all of them. He's never going to lose that - I think he will be acting, and will be beautiful, his entire life. Like Helen Mirren or Alan Rickman or Patrick Stewart.
ETA: Sorry for the garbage post! I hate the inconsistency with which lj puts a hyphen in its commands, mutter, mutter, mutter...
That fic's been in my favorites file since she wrote it. I love that fic. It's brilliant. It always makes me giggle. Honestly, the first thing I thought when Nine regenerated into Ten was where's his chin? This man doesn't have a chin. Then he smiled and it was oh, there it is. Of course it probably doesn't help that my next thought was wasn't he the creepy bad guy in Goblet of Fire? Took a bit for me to actually warm to him. Plus, I was depressed at the end of Nine, so that didn't help. I do adore Ten when he's not being stupid now, but he's never ever going to be Nine. I've often said that if they tried to relaunch Doctor Who with David it wouldn't have been so successful. He was a great replacement, but I don't think we ever would have seen the success it has if it hadn't been launched by Christopher.
Having CE gave the show credibility, there's no doubt about it. I know there were shockwaves when he was announced, and people started seeing the show differently (note he's the only Doctor actor ever to be nominated for a BAFTA in the role -and I sincerely doubt Mark Rylance was anywhere near as good as he was, but SF always loses the toney awards). Americans have no idea, really, just how much of a "serious" profile he has in the UK (I find it wonderful and hysterical that so many of them commented on how funny he is in Heroes). I was trying to explain how unlikely the chemistry was with Billie Piper and could only say "It's like matching Robert de Niro with Britney Spears." Although I think he's a much more flexible and impressive actor than de Niro, it's at least a point of comparison!
I understand that DT's enthusiasm is very endearing and useful for publicity, but I don't think I'd have watched the show with him. Well, to be honest, I know I wouldn't because Ten hits a number of my "DO NOT WANT" buttons, and at times practically plays a symphony on them; but if I were to make a basic comparison, I think the difference for me between Nine and Ten is that Nine saves the day by doing right while Ten does it by being right (although, honestly, sometimes I don't think he is). But Nine is my ideal kind of hero - he's the teacher hero who guides others into seeing and doing the right thing, and also becoming the best that they can be. He's powerful, but he doesn't go around pushing his power on others. That he has to get past his own loss and guilt for having done the right thing and still had it result in disaster is icing on the cake.
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branchandroot
no subject
Date: 2008-04-30 02:35 pm (UTC)I just...can't. I expected to like him, I thought I would warm to him, but I'm afraid it's only gotten worse, and the relationship with Rose was part of it. So it's best for all concerned if I just stay away from Ten!fic!
I really am thinking of splitting it, taking one branch AU Nine with the possibility of a child after some kind of alteration and finally some happiness and one branch Ten with her not willing to be with him for quite some time but the ability to get pregnant but she doesn't because she wanted it with Nine but isn't sure with Ten, and still so super angsty. Okay, now I'm just rambling.
No, actually, I was going to say that if you were wavering, that splitting seemed to be the best option, especially since POTW gives us such an optimal "branching" moment. (And your second option would actually take into account some of the things that really bother me about S2 - I might try to dip a toe in!)
no subject
Date: 2008-05-02 06:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-03 02:48 pm (UTC)First, let me say that while I passionately adored S1, I loved the completion of its arc, and felt hopeful going into S2. The Children in Need special gave me pretty much everything I wanted, and the little niggle I had about Tennant's performance, I figured was just nerves. I went into TCI expecting to love it.
I also expected them to deal with the emotional fall-out of regeneration. I understand that they wanted to bond the audience to the new guy, but they had done such a terrific job of creating a realistic emotional landscape in S1 that the sudden "Oh, that's okay then!" really knocked me for a loop. (This was not helped by a characterization and a performance which I found problematic; this is worse in retrospect for me.) I know a lot of people squee over the idea that Ten "imprinted" on Rose to be her perfect boyfriend, but I find that repulsive on several levels, some of which redound onto Nine - he still felt inadequate because of the way he looked? And I thought the whole point of Rose's maturation in S1 was that she realized that when she finally, genuinely fell in love, it wasn't with a "pretty boy", but with someone who was "so much better than that." (Just to clarify, I find CE quite beautiful, if not at all "pretty".)
The other thing was that the chemistry changed. Nine and Rose had this remarkable thing that I've never seen before - they were hot and sweet, and yet innocent. It was as if they'd completely bypassed all the enculturated shame and coyness about sexuality, and it just flowed between them. Ten and Rose seemed more...adolescent and ordinary to me. They looked like a high school/college couple from the CW, and they were wrapped up in each other in a way that felt desperate on her part and smug on his. So it felt as if the relationship had narrowed and become more limited and conventional.
So it's complicated. But if you're going to have Rose hesitate rather than just going "Whee!!! Now he's cute!" (I have literally seen a number of people say that Rose couldn't possibly have loved Nine because he was "old and ugly"), that would be a big step in the right direction that the show never took, IMO.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-05 11:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-06 07:14 pm (UTC)And what I want to fix.
I'm going to give it a shot!
I noticed a little bit of that creeping into Hunger Moon, too. ;-)
The whole "he's obviously more attractive as Ten" thing has made me a bit bitter. Not to mention how it tends to make Rose look, which some fans really don't seem to notice!
no subject
Date: 2008-05-07 08:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-07 02:32 pm (UTC)Certainly - I was just happy to see her say it out loud! As I say, it's so prevalent in fandom to assume "Well, obviously Ten is more attractive," it's nice to have the counterargument.
DT is attractive up front, but doesn't really ever get more so. CE just keeps getting more and more and more as you go.
That's a good distinction, I like that. I think Tennant is cute as a bug (I have more trouble with Ten, because of various writing and performing aspects that push all my buttons in the wrong way), but I'm always surprised when the argument is made that he's more "classically handsome". I don't think that's actually true - he seems to be a particular type that's very much in fashion right now; he really is very much like Jarvis Cocker, who is so attractive because of his personality - something that is very, very appealing to me. But he's slightly cross-eyed, his nose veers off to the side, and he's got a bit of an underbite. Yes, the whole is cute - particularly when he's being relaxed and himself, to my mind - but it's not "classically handsome". It's "fashionably geeky".
But (and this bears on your comment that you can easily imagine him in make-up), CE really has fashion-model looks. Taken in isolation, most of his features are very much the desired shape/size for that feature; the weirdness seems to come in the way everything is so much - the eyes are so big, the cheekbones are so high, the temples are so hollow, the line of the jaw is so perfect; then there are the big ears and big nose, which I happen to like, but he's very extreme, and it's almost as if there's not enough room in his face for all he's got going on. It's interesting that people who see him in person are always commenting on how incredibly beautiful he is in real life, but that the camera doesn't capture it. (I got a kick out of Jonathan Ross goggling over how good-looking he was, then saying, "On film, you look so weird.") I think CE's RL earnestness and shyness are also very appealing, and he does have a sense of humour, it's just excessively dry.
And so far hasn't stopped. There may not be a stopping place.
It's his relationship with the camera that's quite extraordinary. He's so emotionally naked, it's like he becomes transparent. There are moments in Second Coming that just take my breath away because he suddenly becomes a terrified child, or an awkward teenager. In Doctor Who (and Heroes), it's often the way he's got several layers going on at the same time, and yet lets you see all of them. He's never going to lose that - I think he will be acting, and will be beautiful, his entire life. Like Helen Mirren or Alan Rickman or Patrick Stewart.
ETA: Sorry for the garbage post! I hate the inconsistency with which lj puts a hyphen in its commands, mutter, mutter, mutter...
no subject
Date: 2008-05-07 04:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-07 06:06 pm (UTC)I understand that DT's enthusiasm is very endearing and useful for publicity, but I don't think I'd have watched the show with him. Well, to be honest, I know I wouldn't because Ten hits a number of my "DO NOT WANT" buttons, and at times practically plays a symphony on them; but if I were to make a basic comparison, I think the difference for me between Nine and Ten is that Nine saves the day by doing right while Ten does it by being right (although, honestly, sometimes I don't think he is). But Nine is my ideal kind of hero - he's the teacher hero who guides others into seeing and doing the right thing, and also becoming the best that they can be. He's powerful, but he doesn't go around pushing his power on others. That he has to get past his own loss and guilt for having done the right thing and still had it result in disaster is icing on the cake.